Laggalot

Weavile Moderator
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About Laggalot

  • Rank
    Expert Battle Trainer
  • Birthday 02/19/1996

Battle Pokémon

  • Main
    Weavile
  • Secondaries
    Lucario

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  1. This thread is for the Weavile Optimal Combo spreadsheet for Pokkén Tournament DX on Nintendo Switch. Link to the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Dgm0jRG7wGWuWLrCCv76uM4kNXLwOlBO4nebD2FtOV0/edit?usp=sharing What is this spreadsheet and what is the point? The Weavile Optimal Combo Spreadsheet is a project with the goal of collecting the data for Weavile's best combos to use to fit a variety of potential circumstances, from basic situations like midscreen and next-to-wall positioning in both phases, to cases that factor in more specific circumstances, such as Burst Mode or starting a combo starter on an aerial opponent. In addition to simply listing the combos, the spreadsheet will also provide supplemental information that explains the merit of a combo, and sometimes other relevant notes as well. With all this, the goal is to make it as quick and easy as possible for the reader to figure out what the best combos are for every situation, and why they may be worth using. Methodology The spreadsheet will consist of a variety of pages to fit different circumstances. Every page (other than the Introduction and Table of Contents pages for obvious reasons) will be dedicated to a different set of circumstances. Then, all the possible combo starters are listed vertically, with a list of optimal combos next to each starter and supplemental information after that. For the sake of the spreadsheet, an optimal combo is defined as the most rewarding combo you can perform off a particular starter under a particular set of circumstances. Oftentimes, there's more than one optimal combo for each starter, due to different combos yielding different kinds of rewards (i.e. immediate damage vs. reinforcing advantaged state) or requiring a different amount of unspent PSP to be performed. This information should help the reader decide what combos are the most worthwhile to perform in any context. In order to minimize errors, I make sure to personally test every single combo that makes it onto the spreadsheet. Thanks to this, I can guarantee that every combo listed can be performed. Take note, however, that in order to keep the workload more manageable, I generally only test on Lucario, so some combos may not work perfectly against the full roster. When it is brought to my attention that a combo on the list is dependent on the character the opponent uses, this information will be noted on the spreadsheet. Naturally, tips from people are appreciated. Status of the project This thread is intended to be used to reflect the current status and progress of the project. At the time of writing (April 9th, 2018), the spreadsheet contains 3 combo pages, as well as a page with a brief introduction and a Table of Contents page which provides a brief explanation on the pages, terminology and abbreviations used in the spreadsheet, as well as a couple other notes. Currently, the following pages are complete: - Field Phase - Duel Phase midscreen - Duel Phase wall Note that "Complete" is relative to current knowledge. It is impossible to guarantee that these pages are entirely devoid of errors and are actually, inarguably complete. If you spot an error or wish to argue the contents can be improved, please contact me and let me know. Pages on which work is ongoing: - Duel Corner-carries The spreadsheet is planned to be expanded with more pages to cover a greater variety of circumstances. For now, the spreadsheet is in its most basic state and covers the most basic combo situations. Next, through a poll it was determined that there exists particular interest in the addition of a page for Corner-carry combos, so getting that off the ground properly is currently the highest priority. This page will be a longer-term effort due to the open-ended nature and how difficult it is to define an optimal corner-carry combo as a result. Take "optimal" on this list with a grain of salt. Bearing that in mind, combo suggestions are welcome and in fact requested. Additionally, for the corner-carry combo page specifically, I intend to supplement every listed combo with a short video demonstration to help convey starting position and execution. These will over time be uploaded through a newly created Twitter Account. https://twitter.com/Laggalot101 Contribution At the moment, this is a solo project handled by Laggalot (myself), but I welcome and appreciate anyone who wishes to contribute in any way. Unlike with the original spreadsheet, I also intend to credit anyone who helps out with the project in any tangible way to show my appreciation. I would like to stay more on-hands with the editing personally, but I would kindly ask that I be contacted if you, the reader of this thread and the spreadsheet, has spotted any errors, would like to argue for additions or changes, or suggest improvements to anything related to the spreadsheet, including ways to make it more user-friendly. Thank you for reading, I hope this project will be of use to you.
  2. Hey my Dudes

    My man, Gallivantz, how are you doing? Personally I haven't been keeping track of Pokkén very well lately (kinda out of it, numerous distractions, motivation, etc), so I'm not the best to answer this question, but it seems to be doing just fine right now. And I also just wanted to say hi. Anyway, this forum still isn't exactly high-traffic (at all), so if you want to get a good idea of how the scene and the community are rolling along, you're probably best off hopping on Discord. You could tag Komachi there if you wanna chat with him.
  3. EDD's wall of Braixen Matchup

    Came up earlier in Discord, and for the sake of permanence (which we honestly neglect too much), I decided to throw it in here. May take a little deciphering but there's still useful knowledge in here if you can persevere. braixen? Braixen loses to vile and keep keep us in the corner knock on reaction also covers 75% of her options on wake up/ up close neutral if you have the life lead ice punch catches 4x if they spam it 2x beats boomerand taunt beats everything if you spam taunt cancels into taunt and use agility in between to approach we also have strong field vs her as long as youre patient agility beats errthang ice traps broken and our jx will go over boomerang as well as her sideY if they broomride in your face you can punish with ice punch/5x/8y ice punch will net most damage togekiss, jirachi, frogadier are all p good in this match up emolga if your opponent doesnt know how to dodge it well. (she can pretty easily) togekiss with vile will make you fast enough to close distance in any phase faster than she can actually react so you whiff punish anything almost full screen on reaction pay attention to their burst and support meter because itll dictate what their options are going to be on wake up ect if they have emolga per se, theyre gonna wake up(or if theyre coming from airtech/stumple animation from a knock off punish or furyswipes finisher) 2y/2x/4x. Especially if theyre conditioned to block 5[x]/6[x] oki and knock off will beat out all three of their fastest support call option on reaction/read but unless youre good at it then you can go for 8x or agility taunt at them as soon as you see their character start up a movement animation
  4. Damage Values for all moves

    Got ya some numbers for Field to get started. Damage listing with a '+' is for moves that need to be performed out of another move (such as homing), for j.X which can be canceled between the two hits or for j.A where the hits don't combo into eachother due to the first hit not causing hitstun under normal circumstances. Field: 5Y: 10 on the first individual hit, 42 total at a maximum of 6 hits. During Synergy Burst, totals at 59 damage across a max of 10 hits. f.Y: 50 s.YY: 27 + 22 s.[Y]: 80 b.Y: 104 if all hits land b.[Y]: 100 j.Y: 54 j.[Y]: 80 XX: 40 + 60 X[X]: 80 on the last hit j.X: 40 + 54 AA: 45 f.A: 80 b.A: 65 j.A: 30 + 30 (actually the same damage during Synergy Burst, disregarding the attack buff, except the first hit now does cause hitstun) Grab: 80 CA: 60 [CA]: 80 With a Swords Dance stock (what's the notation for moves that require a stock of SD?) f.AA: 80 + 34 total b.AA: 65 + 36 total j.AA: 30 + 84 total I think that covers all the Field attacks. And as a bonus, Burst Attack: 223
  5. Weavile vs CAs

    Mind if I add a few notes to this? If you think it's of any value, perhaps you can work it into the OP. I've done a little bit of testing on what you can do out of a jab cancel to avoid CA's in Duel Phase, should you happen to jab on a counter frame. A lot of the time, you might still be able to save yourself from getting hit. In addition, I've tested wether Taunt will directly punish an uncharged CA or not, which I imagine could be helpful. Most of the suggested moves in the OP can be used fine as special cancel out of jab. - Blaziken: As stated above, you can't get under his CA while he's in Burst. Thankfully, Night Slash is still an option, and of course it can be used out of a jab to save yourself from getting hit if you're quick about it. Taunt won't punish. - Pikachu: Taunt won't punish. Nothing else to add. Just try to Knock Off the CA. - Lucario: Same thing a Pika. Taunt doesn't punish. - Gardevoir: Alongside Night Slash, Knock Off can also avoid the CA, though the timing is obviously a little more strict. I also found it clashed a lot if you're early with it. Taunt *does* punish this uncharged CA, according to my testing. - Libre: Taunt doesn't punish. - Sceptile: This guy's a little interesting. Sceptile will rear up a little while winding up CA. If you jab into Sceptile as it does this, Night Slash is not going to save your from this CA, as the jab will push you too far forward beforehand. If you accidentally end up jabbing Sceptile's CA, your best bet is probably to Taunt and hope they don't charge (or else you'll at least prevent a crit) or try to stop jabbing immediately and block. Not much else you can do at that point. At least if you do Taunt this uncharged CA, it is guaranteed to punish. - Gengar: Knock Off can also be used, but the timing is tighter. Taunt doesn't punish it. - Machamp: If you jab Machamp on a counterframe, there isn't much you can do. Like with Sceptile, pray you can Taunt an uncharged CA, or immediately stop attacking and Low Profile it if you can. Thankfully here too, Taunt will punish if you get it. - Braixen: Taunt doesn't punish it. - Mewtwo: Taunt will punish uncharged CA. - Lamp Chandelure: Knock Off also works. And given how slow this CA is, I imagine it surprised absolutely nobody that Taunt will punish the uncharged CA. - Suicune: The only character I'm not certain of, because I don't know how Suicune's CA.Y influences this interaction. I can at least tell you that raw uncharged CA can be punished with Taunt. I'm stuck testing with the AI, so that's all I could really figure out. I'm going to try to get someone to help me figure this one out properly. - Weavile: Taunt will punish uncharged CA. - Charizard: Taunt punishes uncharged CA. - Garchomp: Taunt doesn't punish. - Shadow Mewtwo: Pretty much the same deal as Machamp. Taunt uncharged CA (will punish) or stop attacking and either 2X or 8Y. Either should work. 8Y will punish directly.
  6. So if I wanted to make use of one of these things, I'd (ideally) need to have my console and my networking device in close proximity from eachother if I don't want to have a cable going through rooms, do I have that right?
  7. Help understanding input

    The 'j' indicates that the action you're performing is aerial, and not necessarily that you have to perform a jump for each individual aerial input. I don't know much about Scizor specifically, but I'm pretty sure he can perform some aerial combos without landing and I believe the above combo is an example of this.
  8. Feeling extreme levels of hype! Day-one purchase for me. This will do wonders for everything Pokkén related. It should general revitalize online activity, provide a significant surge in the competitive scene, and with a number of new features and increased content, it should appeal better to the casual audience as well. And perhaps most importantly, it's on SWITCH, a young system with loads of potential and a long life ahead of it. I am extremely happy with this reveal. And special shoutout to the Replay feature, I can see myself having a lot of fun with that, especially if the upcoming feature of the Switch itself to allow you to record your gameplay works as I imagine it will.
  9. Kara Cancels

    I've been experimenting with this briefly, and I'd like to ask a couple things based on that. First thing is that I can't tell a difference when attempting a kara-cancel without a directional input. Do you happen to know why that is? Am I doing something wrong or are neutral inputs just not suitable for kara-cancels? I attempted it with a number of characters, but I'm noticing nothing. With most directional inputs, though, I feel like it's fairly obvious. The other thing is that, based on the info in this thread, when Kara-cancelling, you use the startup frames of the cancelled moves instead of that of the grab. So say I am playing Weavile, who has a f9 grab, and I kara-cancel 2Y, which is also f9, does the grab get any slower at all?
  10. Guard Breaks in Pokkén Tournament

    You can find it on the Weavile boards (I've made a thread for it) or as a pinned message on the Weavile Discord's '#snowpoint-gym-metagame' channel. The forum thread also summarizes the current status of the spreadsheet. It's very much a work in progress, but I think what's there should be useful all the same.
  11. Guard Breaks in Pokkén Tournament

    For what it's worth, at least for Weavile, I can confirm this is true. I have collected optimal combos for the character into a spreadsheet, and it includes a page for combos following a shield break. For example, Weavile's [X], 8A[A] combo deals 192 damage, regardless of wether you hit it raw or as a follow-up from breaking shield with his 8X.
  12. This thread is for the optimals spreadsheet for Pokkén Tournament on Wii U. You can find the thread for the DX spreadsheet here: http://www.pokkenarena.com/forums/topic/1437-weavile-optimals-spreadsheet-version-dx/ As some of you may know, I've been working for a quite a while now on a spreadsheet that lists Weavile's best combo options under a particular set of circumstances. (See the spreadsheet's 'Intro' page for more information.) Though the spreadsheet has always been accessible from the Weavile Discord's pinned messages, and from the Weavile forum's resource megathread, I've come to the conclusion that the spreadsheet deserves its own thread, if only to make it easier to find. Should've done that a long time ago, honestly. In addition to drawing attention, with this thread you can easily check the status and progress of the spreadsheet and its individual pages. This spreadsheet is still very much a work in progress, and it will likely remain so for a long time to come. There's a lot of data to collect, compare and write down. Here is the link to the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FrSW4bEAEPC39_nuIMZU7mb-z9O7cHRKSduiqpGERdU/edit#gid=65310575 Currently the spreadsheet is edited and maintained only by myself, and I'm the only one with the right to edit the contents. However, anyone is free to view and comment on its contents, through which you can make suggestions or indirect contributions to the spreadsheet if you so like. If you'd like editing rights in order to make direct contributions of your own, you may contact me through Discord or these forums, so we can discuss the matter. Currently, my ability to play the game is heavily limited, so progress is slow right now. Status Note that 'complete' is relative to current knowledge. Superior combos may always be found in the future and render the currently listed combos sub-optimal by comparison. Field Phase: Complete. Most combo's recorded into a video, thanks to RickyThe3rd. Duel Phase: Complete. Duel Phase Wall: Complete. Burst Mode: Complete. Burst Mode Wall: Barely started. Support: Page created, but currently no progress has been made. Anti-Air Field Phase: Complete. Anti-Air Duel Phase: Currently only Y starters are filled in. Shield Break: Complete. Possibly to be added in the future: - Wall-specific variations of any pages that currently don't have them, like Support and Shield Break combos. If you spot any omissions or errors anywhere in the spreadsheet, PLEASE let me know. You may contact me by pinging me or sending a direct message on Discord, messaging me on these forums or leaving a comment in this thread. Any other thoughts, questions or suggestions regarding this spreadsheet are also always welcome. April 9th, 2018: I have no plans to resume work on the optimals spreadsheet for the Wii U version. This project is now closed.
  13. Weavile Q/A Thread

    @striker008, I believe Night Slash to be obsolete in Field. A really boring answer, but I've searched and experimented and found nothing that other moves don't already do (much) better. Also, between several different homing attacks and the general movement speed in field, the retreat is almost worthless, because simply running back is almost equally effective, while being far, far less committal. I see no good reason to use Night Slash in Field. It has a lot more use in Duel Phase, though. You can make it useful for a number of things. Primarily, you can use it to dodge and retaliate against enemy attacks. With proper spacing, you can use it to punish divekicks, charge-in attacks like Libre's CA or even more extreme cases like (almost) full-screen Mega Lucario BA or Mega Gengar [X] (the rolling attack). If you know how much distance a charge-in attack traverses, you may be able to back off enough to avoid the attack and immediately return an attack. You can also cancel jab into it to avoid (and typically punish) short-range CA's like Gengar's or Charizard's. Remember, though, the retreat, while fast, isn't absolutely instant, nor does it carry any invincibility, so you do have to make the Night Slash input a tad early.
  14. What do you do in Field Phase?

    Well, those are just two more obvious categories. The rest of the cast is are usually a bit more balanced in their ability (as in, no particularly notable extremes in Field that make the way we play Field particularly different from usual), making Field decidedly more complicated and less obvious in how it should be played. Otherwise, I think you got it right, though I think I should add the nuance that for the close-range fighter matchup, we're going to be more pro-active than against other characters, since they'll be more inclined to play reactionary themselves, and likely won't really commit unless they are in a comfortable range to hit us, or at least seriously threaten us. It's about finding that balance between pressure and minimizing commitment which is so important in those Field Phase matchups. While I'm reading the OP now and I have a moment, I want to add that personally, I hardly ever use Signal Slash unless I'm dealing with a Machamp who absolutely refuses to approach me for some reason (which is NOT how Machamp should be playing this matchup regardless, but I've seen it happen). Now, you COULD use Signal Slash upon shifting from Duel back to Field, especially on a wall-blast. It'd be relatively free. However, what that also means is that you're giving up pressure on the opponent, and in most cases, I do not believe that is worth it. You're giving the opponent more space to work with, and with that, you're effectively increasing the odds of the game being turned against you. This is an especially dangerous thing when considering Weavile's relatively low damage-to-health ratio, and when the Rage effect becomes active on the opponent. There's also that Signal Slash has diminishing returns on fast-charging supports (Not sure, but I think the boost to the gauge is percentage-based), and it's obviously next to useless with Cresselia if you use that. Having said that, if they ever bring over the latest Arcade patch, and give us double Signal Slash to work with, I think the option may become a lot more viable, because suddenly, you'd go from + 1/6th of your gauge to +1/3rd, which is really big. But again, as it stands now, I don't think it's usually worth it.
  15. What do you do in Field Phase?

    Personally, I've always felt that Weavile, more than most characters, has to adapt his play to whoever the opponent is and what they are doing, and not them adapting to us. Thankfully, I also happen to believe Weavile is plentifully equipped with the versatility necessary to make those adaptations. While there is a bit of a general gameplan for us, I think you almost have to break it down per (sort of) character to really understand it properly. First thing of note is that connecting an ice trap (s.Y) on our opponent is an instant win of Field Phase. Though not particularly reliable, the threat of these traps, combined with their relative persistence makes them great tools for controlling space against opponents that can't eliminate or trivialize them easily. Don't force them, though, because this is QUITE a laggy move in execution. Several characters can instantly punish us from across the arena if they're ready to do so, such as Gengar with his Shadow Punch, or Suicune with Aurora Beam. In these battles in particular, let the opponent act before you do. Knowing your opponent is half the battle, after all. Now, there's two particular categories of opponents that will likely deter us from our conventional approach to Field Phase. Close-up hard-hitting fighters, who not unlike us lack a stronge long-range game and the dedicated zoners, who want to keep us out instead, but lack prominent close-range ability. These categories deserve particular attention, in my opinion, and these are the ones I feel most inclined and comfortable to talk about. For the close-range fighters, believe it or not, we can zone them out to an extent. These characters are mainly Machamp and Blaziken. Our entire arsenal of projectiles is fairly effective at harassing these guys. We can lay down an ice trap and dance around it to control more space, while pelting them with more projectiles. Be careful, however, not to start playing auto-pilot, because they WILL break through eventually, and you'll feel the hurt when they do. Keep commitment low, and extend Field Phase for as long as you can. Our projectiles aren't exactly powerful, and the battle becomes kinda slow in the process, but Weavile is good at running away, so this plays to our strength. But, if you have the opportunity for a big punish, and to keep up momentum after a phase shift, you may still want to take it. I'd argue Charizard, Garchomp and even Libre fit into this category to an extent as well, but they have a much easier time breaking through our defenses and even returning pressure on us, making such a highly defensive approach less immediately effective. Dedicated zoners are arguably the easiest category for us to fight. These are in particular Gardevoir, Suicune and Chandelure. Our movement speed makes approaching a relative breeze, and Agility effectively invalidates a great deal of their zoning efforts if used properly. Agility is somewhat laggy, so I recommend holding off on this until you're close enough to where using it puts you in immediate striking range for Fury Swipes. Beyond that, I'd recommend relying on your shield more than on Agility or CA, the latter particularly if the opposing character possesses a long-range armour-piercing move. When we get close to a zoner, they will frequently find themselves in a bit of a panic, as they'll be cornered and lacking in options very quickly. Depending on how twitchy your opponent is, it's very viable to attempt to bait an overextenstion from the opponent, desperate to regain space and control. It's useful to know how your opponent will act under pressure, and once again, knowing your opponent is half the battle. Chandelure is the difficult one here, as the spinning top attack (s.[Y]) hits widely, beats counter, and isn't directly punishable on block, while also being able to punish overextension with Minimize, among other issues. Approach this one very carefully. Braixen also fits this category to a lesser extent, but I think our inability to Agility through her f.Y (boomerang), along with her support cancels and just overall access to many different options present a gamechanger, and makes for a much more complicated Field Phase.