Plague von Karma

Tier List?

12 posts in this topic

So in the run-up to Pokkén Tournament DX, I decided to return to the Pokkén Community a couple days ago. So yeah, for anyone who didn't know...hello from the Twitter side of the community?

 

First thing I expected to see was a Tier List by now, as it's DEFINITELY not "Too Early" anymore. The only difference I've seen is, well, that Kara Cancels exist. Not sure why a Tier List hasn't been made yet, as Smash 4 had one out within months of it's release. Pokkén hasn't had one in over a year. I remember having that Ace Trainer System for the old forum getting a half-finished matchup chart going, but it never took off...

 

The reason I'm asking for a Tier List is mainly because the Wii U Version is clearly not getting any updates, and it's only right to give this version it's own Tier List for Legacy Purposes. After all, the Wii U and Switch Versions will have VERY different metagames, and some people may not move to the Switch for a while. On top of that, some people may be trying to get into the game in the run-up to Pokkén DX, and it's only right to give them some kind of guide to go off of. Let's be kind to those new players, eh?

 

I guess I'll throw in my personal Tier List in an attempt to speed things up. Pretty sure I'll get shot because on the internet you're always wrong. Note that this game is...*hides Braixen*...incredibly balanced, so tier positions aren't easy to choose. I may have some minor mistakes here and there, but hey.

  • S Tier
    • Braixen
      • Immense Field Phase Game, epic Burst Mode, improved by various techs that just keep being found. I don't think she has any matchup less than 50:50 tbh.
    • Sceptile
      • Has a Duel Phase Semi-Infinite, super fast, anyone who uses him is a wizard or some shit idk
  • A Tier
    • Pikachu Libre
      • If you're in the corner, you're fucked. Also has various techs that improve her Duel Phase a ton. Lastly, Slippingbug exists. Issue here is that she's very momentum based, although very good at keeping it.
    • Mewtwo
      • Deals a shitload of damage very quickly, only hampered by the fact he goes into Burst once a century rather than once a Round or two.
    • Pikachu
      • All around character, can adapt to many situations. Predictable, however.
    • Lucario
      • The same as Pikachu, really. Up A is very punishable, although a great anti-air move if used correctly. Great combo ability, easy to pick up and play unlike the above.
    • Weavile
      • Interesting Field Phase, good combo ability overall. Can't approach very well, though.
  • B Tier
    • Garchomp
      • Almost got an A from me, but being read based isn't doing him any favors. Incredible mindgames coupled by some nasty Sand Tomb combos.
    • Charizard
      • Seismic Toss nukes your HP if you're caught, Schiggy Special is cool.
    • Chandelure
      • If it wasn't for his nerfs, he'd be replacing Weavile in A Tier. Otherwise a great character that does zoning correctly.
    • Blaziken
      • I only ever see people who can't cook their KFC correctly because they keep burning it, so I don't know how good this wonderful piece of fried chicken really is. 
    • Suicune
      • He can be taken to extremely high levels, but all of his projectiles can be CADC'd, with Blizzard opening him up for a massive meaty. Countered by Libre, hurt severely by Garchomp.
    • Machamp
      • I used to think he was terrible, but then I got THKO'd by him.
    • Shadow Mewtwo
      • You go into Burst in 3 seconds, ok. However, his HP is way too low and he keeps going from 480 to 100 in 10 seconds just to get that Burst. One read and he's dead.
  • C Tier
    • Gengar
      • I really want to play Gengar, but honestly, he's just too slow paced and lacks hitboxes. I get that he's meant to be like MvC Phoenix Wright, but he's way too slow for that.
    • Gardevoir
      • Nice zoning, incredible close range combos. However, she just has too many issues to be considered relevant.
  • ??? Tier
    • Darkrai
      • No idea since he's unreleased, but I personally think he'll be at the top of B Tier.
    • Empoleon
      • The Ice Mechanic looks fun, but he's a little slow. Maybe the middle of B Tier?
    • Croagunk
      • Tonosama says he's terrible, so let's say top of C Tier?
    • Scizor
      • Honestly, I may Secondary him. Looks to be around the bottom of A Tier to me.
    • Decidueye
      • No idea, but the arrow looked pretty big. I'll leave him here until the game comes out, I guess.

 

So I guess we should start discussing when the Wii U Version gets it's Tier List?

Edited by Plague von Karma

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I feel there are some good points, but things like arguments/opinions why a Character is high tier or whats good about him isn't really clear.
Most of the comments you did about the Characters are just inaccurate or heavily opinion based.

There is nothing wrong thinking about a accurate tierlist, the better way would be talking with a lot of good player who understand the game and discussing every singel Character, Online and Offline.
After quotes like " I guess I'll throw in my personal Tier List in an attempt to speed things up. " isn't the way to go. Your tier list is as I said heavily opinion based and shound't be the mark for a beta stage for the tierlist.
Since it looks just really like its based on your experience and opinion.

Otherwise its a start to finally talk about a good and honst tierlist for Pokkén, but if its worth doing it when Pokkén DX is that close?
 

 

Edited by Braxton

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1 hour ago, Braxton said:

I feel there are some good points, but things like arguments/opinions why a Character is high tier or whats good about him isn't really clear.
Most of the comments you did about the Characters are just inaccurate or heavily opinion based.

There is nothing wrong thinking about a accurate tierlist, the better way would be talking with a lot of good player who understand the game and discussing every singel Character, Online and Offline.
After quotes like " I guess I'll throw in my personal Tier List in an attempt to speed things up. " isn't the way to go. Your tier list is as I said heavily opinion based and shound't be the mark for a beta stage for the tierlist.
Since it looks just really like its based on your experience and opinion.

Otherwise its a start to finally talk about a good and honst tierlist for Pokkén, but if its worth doing it when Pokkén DX is that close?
 

 

My Tier List wasn't meant to be taken as gospel or as an accurate one. That was my opinion, which is why it is opinion-based.

 

As for it being worth it, I already went over this. 

On 6/11/2017 at 11:09 AM, Plague von Karma said:

The reason I'm asking for a Tier List is mainly because the Wii U Version is clearly not getting any updates, and it's only right to give this version it's own Tier List for Legacy Purposes. After all, the Wii U and Switch Versions will have VERY different metagames, and some people may not move to the Switch for a while. On top of that, some people may be trying to get into the game in the run-up to Pokkén DX, and it's only right to give them some kind of guide to go off of. Let's be kind to those new players, eh?

 

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On 6/13/2017 at 0:58 AM, WECKmaster329 said:

Plague, I do not see Suicune anywhere on the list..... Maybe you might want to edit that in?

Fixed. I personally think he's a solid mid tier, mainly because of my personal experiences. I'm not exceptional with making tier lists...

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Viable:

Literally everyone.

 

A+
Mewtwo, Pikachu Libre, Weavile, Braixen

:Mewtwo::Libre::Weavile::Braixen:

 

A

Sceptile, Pikachu, Lucario, Shadow Mewtwo, Charizard, Garchomp, Machamp

:Sceptile::Pikachu::Lucario::ShadowMewtwo::Charizard::Garchomp::Machamp:

 

A-

Gengar, Chandelure, Suicune, Gardevoir

:Gengar::Chandelure::Suicune::Gardevoir:

 

B+

Blaziken

:Blaziken:

 

  • Mewtwo's pretty consistent and solid overall, with his only major weakness being a lack of quick mids and having a slow as hell burst. He's still got one of the best moves in the game in iAD jY, his confirms deal a lot of damage in either phase, and players have worked around former issues that they thought the character had (like lack of oki pressure isn't even a thing anymore). Though his burst mode is rare, his burst attack is incredibly powerful in application and raw damage. Mewtwo is a character with mostly tools that are very good, but other than iAD jY, nothing is even close to busted on Mewtwo. Still, his few weaknesses don't hold him back unless he fails to get momentum, but that's also why he has good defensive options and a strong field phase.
  • Pikachu Libre's only weaknesses are having an 'average at best' field phase and neutral in duel, but she has great damage, fast burst, insane mobility, and her ability to buff defense and attack are really really strong. Pikachu Libre also has great set play, being able to force 50/50s very often, and has some of the most salt-inducing pressure simply because a Pikachu Libre at minus is still capable of mixing you up. Stacking buffs makes making comebacks against Libre a nightmare, and some characters have very little options when trying to chase Libre flipping off walls and dive kicking across the stage.
  • Weavile has amazing tools overall. His main weaknesses are low health, A FUCKING AWFUL GRAB RANGE, and generally low damage (he still has high damaging combos and good resets though). He's underplayed all around the world though, because he's very hard to play. Lots of his tools are unintuitive and you really need to tailor his moveset per match up. Once you can, you'll see that he can come up with some counterplay to nearly the entire cast to some extent. He's got fast normals, good reach, many ways to become invincible or avoid damage, incredible movement options that only get better in burst, and is insanely tough to catch. His combos require good situational awareness to maximize damage output and to balance it with meter drain opportunities.
  • Braixen is really good because support canceling combined with the ability to use Sunny Day (a move that charges your support, powers up your specials, and can also give you an attack buff) is really good. Braixen has some weaknesses, mainly in that she lacks a good reactionary anti-air and can struggle greatly without a support or EX move available, but she can easily make up for it through the strength of fast charging supports, good movement speed and options in both phases, and decent HP.

 

  • Sceptile has unblockables and fantastic movement. He has lackluster damage, is kind of reliant on resets, and an average burst gain. He also needs a bit of help to get his momentum started in a lot of cases since he has somewhat average frame data. However his good movement and good range offer him the ability to whiff punish and play neutral very well. He has a very fast jump speed and good jump angle, and that's not even counting bullet seed preparation jumps. Sceptile is great at making opponents uncomfortable at all sorts of ranges, but without hard reads, his leads aren't usually very big, and his tools to combat burst mode without his own burst mode aren't the greatest.
  • Pikachu has great normals, great pressure, a fast and long lasting burst, and an overall good neutral game. He struggles to circumvent the attack triangle (this is his biggest weakness) and has a slow anti-air game. Pikachu, despite being the cover character, is tough to use as well. Running in and doing mix ups leaves you at the mercy of the attack triangle since Pikachu is so bad at avoiding CAs, but Pikachu also has the tools to play a strong neutral game and convert into good damage that doesn't phase shift. His field phase is decent and he has an excellent dive kick for it, which makes his long lasting burst mode all the more threatening, especially if he runs a support to keep stacking it over and over.
  • Lucario has excellent frame data, lots of ways to circumvent the attack triangle, a great whiff punish game, and gorilla damage. He has a bad field phase, and is average in a lot of areas that he wish he was better at (like anti-zoning with projectiles or movement speed), most of his pressure ends after something he does is blocked because everything he does that isn't charged or isn't an aerial is minus. Lucario can threaten a lot of characters with a lot of different tools, but his tools are usually single purpose, and he can't cover too many options at once in neutral without using risky moves. 
  • Shadow Mewtwo is able to generate extremely long pressure strings and dish out a lot of damage while gaining meter insanely fast by virtue of being a low CC character who does recoil. He has an oppressive field phase if he has any momentum. Shadow Mewtwo is versatile and has many tools and options, but his greatest strength is being able to stay in control once he starts up momentum, and to use burst to bring it back whenever he loses it. He has solid punishing tools to help him get pressure started off of an opponent's mistakes as well. His duel phase neutral has a lot of blind spots, however, and he takes huge punishment for making mistakes. The fact that he has to play so well and hold momentum so often makes it hard for him to stay consistent. 
  • Charizard has huge range, huge damage, and a relatively strong field phase. His Burst Mode is currently so good that you're basically forced to block any time he jumps. His frame data is very much on the slow side, and his execution ceiling is very high. His slow move speed is a huge hindrance in many match ups, and his approach options can be somewhat linear, meaning he requires a ton of patience. His long range in neutral allows him to steadily force an opponent into bad situations, and his gigantic hitboxes often cover many options. He also can fake out opponents with his stances and inferno cancels, allowing him to whiff punish overeager opponents. Even without doing his higher skill techniques, people will still have issue dealing with critical fire punch and getting hit by seismic toss on wake up.
  • Garchomp deals very high damage and has very strong mix ups. His release X buttons are powerful tools, and he has pretty fast movement in field. Though his neutral is lackluster, he gets a big conversion off of stray hits very often. His 'lackluster' neutral really just means he can't press buttons wildly and has to wait for his chance to go in, which isn't the biggest deal. He has trouble dealing with good defense though, and getting boxed into a corner is bad for Garchomp since outside of release X, he has weak defensive options. Garchomp's movement options in duel phase can also leave him vulnerable, since without running stance, he is slow. When he uses dig, he is vulnerable. When he uses running stance, he doesn't have many options out of it.
  • Machamp does brutal damage, has a ton of reset potential, is able to turn a game around in seconds, and can walk you into a corner like no one's business. He's full of frame traps and he has some solid pokes to allow him to play out a life lead patiently if he wants. He often has to play from behind due to losing to most field phases though, and his slow speed and often reactable approach options make it difficult for him to do something without a support or big guess. Machamp also has some really excruciating match ups, and he doesn't always have a good answer to things like Togekiss Braixen and Chandelure.

 

  • Gengar has very tricky movement, an absurdly strong burst mode, and for the most part, pretty solid damage. His neutral game is incredibly different from other characters since he focuses on using i-frames to punish things other characters can't. He gets low rewards for properly anti-airing opponents (But a big one for going for a hard read air to air), and though his CA is very rewarding, it has a pretty bad hitbox. His frame data is somewhat shoddy, but nonetheless, he is able to set up traps via Shadowball and Sludge Bomb, and he's got all the tools he needs to hit the synergy count he desires. Mega Gengar alone is enough to close out a game against someone with 320 HP or less. He does have a rough time against characters like Weavile and Mewtwo though.
  • Chandelure has a strong zoning game and can do legit 50/50s from far away. She's also got pretty much the best anti-air 8Y in the game, and currently, Minimize allows her to be the only character with a delayed wake up too! She has a solid keepaway game and Overheat gives her an ace in the hole for pressure situations. Chandelure has no frame 9 move though, and this means other characters get away with some janky shit sometimes. The overall poor frame data makes it tough for Chandelure to contend with a lot of pressure, making her forced to guess haphazardly on defense. This, combined with her few defensive options (though minimize is great so eh?) means she can get snowballed to death almost as easily as SM2 can.
  • Suicune does ridiculously high damage for simple conversions, has a pretty annoying zoning game, and has a lot of tournament results all across the world. But that doesn't solve the problem of having poor frame data, lackluster CQC, and a reliance on conditioning opponents. While having a long range CA helps, there are a lot of holes in Suicune's gameplay (linear play style, conditioning dependent, numerous bad match ups) that has recently made many Suicune mains across the world drop off result-wise since Season 1.
  • Gardevoir deals heavy damage, and has a plethora of set ups and traps. However, she has meh frame data and is reliant on setting up those traps to make opponents make the wrong choices. She can't play neutral very well, and she sucks at whiff punishing. A lot of what she does is slow, and her unblockables are much harder to set up than Sceptile's are. Gardevoir is still capable of placing projectiles and traps in such a way that her opponent is forced to "dance" around them, allowing her to set up her own counterplay to it. In this regard, she kind of changes how characters play neutral, as she can take control if you let her, but in often cases, not letting her take control means taking a risk.

 

  • Blaziken is forced to play aggressively at all times, which constantly puts Blaziken at the mercy of RPS reversals. Because his neutral game doesn't have any reliable pokes, he can't keep anyone away from him when he has a life lead. He's constantly burning health to stay in and remain a threat, and lots of his pressure has gaps within it that only get closed up while in Burst. He has awful defensive options and often linear approach options. While just about every other character has won a major at least once, I think Blaziken might be the only character that hasn't won any at all in the world. All this said, Blaziken still does tremendous damage, is incredibly fear inducing, and has a great burst mode that he can get quickly. 

 

This is my take on things. Honestly, the ordering within tiers could be varied (but I'm pretty confident in the top 3 at least), and I think that you don't really need a tier list for this game because every character has been a threat at high levels. Like even though I listed a bunch of faults for Blaziken, I could probably still put him in A-. 

Edited by 五月雨のペンタオ

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On 6/17/2017 at 3:57 AM, 五月雨のペンタオ said:

Viable:

Literally everyone.

 

A+
Mewtwo, Pikachu Libre, Weavile, Braixen

:Mewtwo::Libre::Weavile::Braixen:

 

A

Sceptile, Pikachu, Lucario, Shadow Mewtwo, Charizard, Garchomp, Machamp

:Sceptile::Pikachu::Lucario::ShadowMewtwo::Charizard::Garchomp::Machamp:

 

A-

Gengar, Chandelure, Suicune, Gardevoir

:Gengar::Chandelure::Suicune::Gardevoir:

 

B+

Blaziken

:Blaziken:

 

  • Mewtwo's pretty consistent and solid overall, with his only major weakness being a lack of quick mids and having a slow as hell burst.
  • Pikachu Libre's only weaknesses are having an 'average at best' field phase and neutral in duel, but she has great damage, fast burst, insane mobility, and her ability to buff defense and attack are really really strong.
  • Weavile has amazing tools overall, great neutral, fast burst, etc. His main weaknesses are low health, A FUCKING AWFUL GRAB RANGE, and generally low damage (he still has high damaging combos and good resets though).
  • Braixen is really good because support canceling combined Sunny Day (a move that charges your support, powers up your specials, and can also give you an attack buff) is really good. She has a horrible anti-air game though.

 

  • Sceptile has unblockables and fantastic movement. He has lackluster damage, is kind of reliant on resets, and an average burst gain. He also needs a bit of help to get his momentum started in a lot of cases since he has somewhat average frame data.
  • Pikachu has great normals, great pressure, a fast and long lasting burst, and an overall good neutral game. He struggles to circumvent the attack triangle (this is his biggest weakness) and has a slow anti-air game.
  • Lucario has excellent frame data, lots of ways to circumvent the attack triangle, a great whiff punish game, and gorilla damage. He has a bad field phase, and is average in a lot of areas that he wish he was better at (like anti-zoning with projectiles or movement speed), most of his pressure ends after something he does is blocked because everything he does that isn't charged or isn't an aerial is minus.
  • Shadow Mewtwo is able to generate extremely long pressure strings and dish out a lot of damage while gaining meter insanely fast by virtue of being a low CC character who does recoil. He has an oppressive field phase if he has any momentum. His duel phase neutral has a lot of blind spots and he takes huge punishment for making mistakes.
  • Charizard has huge range, huge damage, and a relatively strong field phase. His Burst Mode is currently so good that you're basically forced to block any time he jumps. His frame data is very much on the slow side, and his execution barrier is very high. His slow move speed is a huge hindrance in many match ups, and his approach options can be somewhat linear.
  • Garchomp deals very high damage and has very strong mix ups. His release X buttons are powerful tools, and he has pretty fast movement in field. Though his neutral is lackluster, he gets a big conversion off of stray hits very often. His 'lackluster' neutral really just means he can't press buttons wildly and has to way for his chance to go in, which isn't the biggest deal. He has trouble dealing with good defense though, and getting boxed into a corner is bad for Garchomp since outside of release X, he has weak defensive options.
  • Machamp does brutal damage, has a ton of reset potential, is able to turn a game around in seconds, and can walk you into a corner like no one's business. He's full of frame traps and he has some solid pokes to allow him to play out a life lead patiently if he wants. He has to play from behind due to losing to most field phases though, and his slow speed and often reactable approach options make it difficult for him to do something without a support or big guess.

 

  • Gengar has very tricky movement, an absurdly strong burst mode, and for the most part, pretty solid damage. He lacks an effective neutral game though, and he relies on trickiness to make his opponent mess up over just having solid fundamentals. Having a really rough match up against Weavile hurts him a lot, as does having low HP. 
  • Chandelure has a strong zoning game and can do legit 50/50s from far away. She's also got pretty much the best anti-air 8Y in the game, and currently, Minimize allows her to be the only character with a delayed wake up too! She has a solid keepaway game and Overheat gives her an ace in the hole for pressure situations. Chandelure has no frame 9 move though, and this means other characters get away with some janky shit sometimes. The overall poor frame data makes it tough for Chandelure to contend with a lot of pressure, making her forced to guess haphazardly on defense. This, combined with her low defense means she can get snowballed to death almost as easily as SM2 can.
  • Suicune does ridiculously high damage for simple conversions, has a pretty annoying zoning game, and has a lot of tournament results all across the world. But that doesn't solve the problem of having poor frame data, lackluster CQC, and a reliance on conditioning opponents. While having a long range CA helps, there are a lot of holes in Suicune's gameplay that has recently made many Suicune mains across the world drop off result-wise since Season 1.
  • Gardevoir deals heavy damage, and has a plethora of set ups and traps. However, she has meh frame data and is reliant on setting up those traps to make opponents make the wrong choices. She can't play neutral very well, and she sucks at whiff punishing. A lot of what she does is slow, and her unblockables are much harder to set up than Sceptile's are.

 

  • Blaziken is forced to play aggressively at all times, which constantly puts Blaziken at the mercy of RPS reversals. Because his neutral game doesn't have any reliable pokes, he can't keep anyone away from him when he has a life lead. He's constantly burning health to stay in and remain a threat, and lots of his pressure has gaps within it that only get closed up while in Burst. He has awful defensive options and often linear approach options. While just about every other character has won a major at least once, I think Blaziken might be the only character that hasn't won any at all in the world. All this said, Blaziken still does tremendous damage, is incredibly fear inducing, and has a great burst mode that he can get quickly.

 

This is my take on things. Honestly, the ordering within tiers could be varied (but I'm pretty confident in the top 3 at least), and I think that you don't really need a tier list for this game because every character has been a threat at high levels. Like even though I listed a bunch of faults for Blaziken, I could probably still put him in A-. 

I see what you mean, but the lack of a tier list is what's stopping the more competitive folks from getting into the game. It's not that the game doesn't need one, but what part of the community needs one. Every fighting game has one, mainly because it's commonplace and a tradition. Traditions shouldn't be broken just because of balance: nothing is truly balanced.

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Like in Smash 4, there should be a backroom for Pokkén Tournament. Use the top players, or maybe have people vote for their players. The only tier list this game has is fucking EventHubs: nobody uses that, especially FGC Players. To me, a Pokkén Backroom with reputable players is the only way anyone can actually get a tier list done with as little backlash and unreliability as possible. There's always backlash for every tier list, but an accurate list generally begins to come out after ~3 iterations. 

 

Basically, look at the Smash Community. Go from there.

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6 minutes ago, 五月雨のペンタオ said:

That's alright, I understand other people want to see a tier list.

 

Who makes the 'official' tier list though?

"official" lul

 

we don't have one, and i doubt we ever will, the tiers in this game don't matter at all

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On 6/16/2017 at 9:57 PM, 五月雨のペンタオ said:
On 6/16/2017 at 9:57 PM, 五月雨のペンタオ said:

Shadow Mewtwo is able to generate extremely long pressure strings and dish out a lot of damage while gaining meter insanely fast by virtue of being a low CC character who does recoil. He has an oppressive field phase if he has any momentum. His duel phase neutral has a lot of blind spots and he takes huge punishment for making mistakes.

 

I'm not one to be to invested in making tier lists, but I guess it couldn't hurt. Pentao actually has good reasoning concerning SM2s placement. Actually taking note of his "blind spots" in neutral!

 

While I agree with what you said, I think in DX he's 5th -> 7th (whatever tier that may be). His long range neutral changed but doesn't make him lose MUs, his blind spots are moreso ranges where his normals lose to basically anything (High/Low, CA). An example(s) would be midrange air space where iAD jY or jAA can just get blown up or has little reward.

 

Nothing is really stopping this character from being top 5 other than those two things: weak options in certain neutral spaces and risk/reward getting more skewed when he uses more HP. Things I believe the player, if skilled enough can make up for. 

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I'm not sure if an "official" tier list would be healthy at all. I feel like all that tier lists ever do is keeping people from playing their favorite characters. If, like people say, literally every character is viable there shouldn't be a need for one, right?
I don't mind random people throwing out their personal tier lists but if there is an "official" tier list new players are going to think "ok, character X is bad and that's a fact, so I can't choose him".
Also, the only other game I know of that has an "official" tier list is smash. I've never heard of anything like this in any other game (correct me if I'm wrong). 

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